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Thread: Stretched on $250K a year

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    Stretched on $250K a year

    Ellen Parnell and her husband, Donald Parnell Jr., seem like the kind of well-off couple President Barack Obama has in mind when he suggests raising taxes on families earning more than $250,000 a year. A surgeon at Fort Sanders Sevier Medical Center in Sevierville, Tenn., he drives an Infiniti. They vacation at a beach resort every year.

    Yet, right now he is working seven days a week. The car is more than a decade old, the vacation home in Sandestin, Fla., comes at a moderate weekly rate because members of Ms. Parnell's extended family own it. Her family of five would like more room than they have in their 2,500-square-foot home, yet they can't afford anything larger. The downturn has them skittish about paying for renovations.

    "I'm not complaining, but the reality is Obama may call me wealthy, but I thought we were just good old middle class," says Ms. Parnell. "Our needs are being met, but we don't have a load of cash to cover wants."

    It is a tricky situation in which some Americans find themselves after a long boom: They are by no means struggling, compared with the 98% of Americans who make far less, but depending on where they live and the lifestyle choices they have made, they don't necessarily feel rich, either. Worse, in their view, they are facing the same tax rates as those making millions. Some of the expenses are self-inflicted -- like private-school costs and conspicuous consumption. Others, though, are unavoidable, like child-care costs, larger health-care deductibles and education expenses, especially college.

    Under Mr. Obama's budget proposal, two of the highest tax brackets would see rates rise, and deductions would be reduced for households earning more than $250,000 annually. President Obama said Wednesday, "We've made a clear promise that families that earn less than $250,000 will not see their taxes increase by a single dime."

    By any statistical measure, that income level is at the top of the bracket. But for those closest to the line, the money might be less a sign of affluence than it is of the industry of dual-income couples. It is possible, say observers, that veteran civil servants could fall into the higher tax bracket.

    The political calculation is dicey. The White House needs the additional revenue to cover some of its ambitious policy agenda, especially a health-care revamp. But some polling data suggest households that earn above $200,000 went heavily for Mr. Obama in November.

    Until more details of the tax changes are disclosed, it is unclear whether people making big six-figure sums will be affected at all. They may, for example, be able to avoid tax increases if any number of deductions pull them below the threshold. But that isn't stopping those who earn near the threshold from worrying about it.

    Already, many members of Congress are seeking to scale back some of the proposed tax increases, which call for raising the top federal tax rates to 36% from 33% on households earning $250,000 or above.

    Wealth and comfort "depends on where you're coming from," said Lois Avitt, a sociologist and founding director of the Institute for Socio-Financial Studies in Charlottesville, Va. To a family earning $50,000, $250,000 is well off, but for the family earning $250,000, rising college and medical costs and dropping home values make the perception debatable.

    The reasons for the insecurity are that net worth is declining at the same time that expenses like education and health care, two of the biggest concerns cited by members of that income group, are going up faster than wages and income, says Heidi Shierholz, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute in Washington. "Those are the biggies. They are huge parts of the set of middle-class aspirations, and the prices of those have increased way faster than income." The bursting of the housing bubble makes that more stark.

    Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com, says data show that over the last 10 years, education costs have risen 5.91% annually, and health- care expenses have gone up 4.16% annually, while wages and income have risen only 3.7% over the same time span. That means many families are seeing a greater percentage of their income going toward those two areas.

    Education costs, which are far outstripping wages and income, are especially worrisome for this income bracket because upper-income earners are much less likely to receive the kind of financial aid that lower income levels can expect.

    The drop in net worth has been staggering. The Federal Reserve, in a recent report, found that U.S. households' net worth dropped by $11 trillion, a decline of nearly 18%, during 2008. That wealth includes everything from home values to mutual funds and life insurance, college and pension funds. The decline equaled the combined output of Germany, Japan and the U.K.

    Changes to the tax code don't generally make adjustments for high costs of living in particular areas of the country.

    San Jose, Calif., Mayor Chuck Reed calls a family living in Silicon Valley earning $250,000 "upper working class." That is about what two engineers working at a technology firm can expect to make, but "a family earning $250,000 a year can't buy a home in Silicon Valley," he said.

    James Duran owns a human-resources company in Silicon Valley and is president of the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce in California. He supported Mr. Obama, but is worried about the tax proposals. He has laid off some employees in recent months and has been wondering how he can fund an extension of those workers' health-care benefits.

    Mr. Duran said he and his wife earn about $400,000 annually, but "I'm barely getting by." They have high property and state taxes, as well as college tuition and savings to cover. "I'm an Obama man, but this side of him is a difficult pill for me," he said.

    Van Moore, an optometrist in Sevierville, makes just enough in his practice that he worries he might qualify for the tax increase. Mr. Moore said he was contemplating adding two staff workers and another doctor to his practice, but then the economy went soft. In the years after he finished optometry school, his first job brought in less than $20,000 a year. Then he made $50,000 for several years, all the while dealing with his $150,000 student-loan debt, which he still has. Now he is making just above $250,000.

    "I'm not in a mobile home with no utilities or running water and holes in the floor," he said. "I'm not poor, but I'm not rich."

    For the Parnells, their perception of themselves is based on the math. The value of their house is down $60,000. Ms. Parnell says the couple's gross income last year was about $260,000. Taxes, premiums for medical care and deductions for Social Security and their 401(k) contributions cut the gross to about $12,000 per month. The family tithes $1,300 a month at their church. Their mortgage, second mortgage and payment on land they bought is nearly $4,000 a month. Other expenses, including their family car payment, insurance and college funds, as well as basics like food, utilities and donations to charities, leave them with about $1,200 left over each month.

    "I'm not after sympathy. We are blessed. What I want is a reality check on what rich means," Ms. Parnell says. "I can pay my mortgage and I can buy some clothes. I'm not going without, but I'm not living a life of luxury."


    ]

  2. #2
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    There is something to be said for this. Even if you gross $250,000 a year taxes can kill you, and not just income taxes either. Social Security and Medicare takes a big chunk out of your paycheck. Also, just ask anyone that's still paying off student loans whether they have lots of money to spend. Obama's proposal to merely raise taxes based on gross income levels is flawed because just because even though people make $250,000, they don't necessarily have anywhere near that much to actually spend, and that's before you factor in the cost of living.
    Last edited by buffalofan19; 04-20-2009 at 09:52 AM.

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    1300 tithe to their church every month and private schools boo fucking hoo. you can cut down and live well on 250k if you can't that's on you.

    Also, I guarantee their fucking house is close to a million a year.

    I have more loans here than pretty much everyone. if I didn't consolidate them, and added everything else and cleared 13k a month I'd have about 8k left over after all my bills got paid.

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    Fuck them, I live on my own and make Fucking $7.40 an hour in a very expensive town. It's possible to make it comfortably if you're smart about it.

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    Wow. These two need to get off the :waaambulance:. Pathetic.

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    Uncle Jesse (04-20-2009)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse View Post
    Fuck them, I live on my own and make Fucking $7.40 an hour in a very expensive town. It's possible to make it comfortably if you're smart about it.
    Read the article again. They're not crying poor. What they're saying is, raising the tax rate on a 250k family because they're "filthy rich" is a bad premise. UJ, you can live comfortable on $7.40 an hour by being frugal, true, but you also barely pay any taxes on that money either. By living in an apartment, you also don't pay property taxes either, which can also take a huge bite out of your bank account. Obama is faultily assuming that because people gross $250,000 or more, they can afford to pay an even higher tax bracket.

    And Emo, if they don't tithe that $1,300 to their church, about 70% of it would go to the Federal goverment, and the rest might go to the state depending on which state you live. It can make that much of a difference in your taxes with the way the US tax system is structured, especially when you're in that high of a tax bracket. Now, the private school is another issue, but even then, what's the point of making that much money if you can't use it the way you want? We're not talking about buying exotic luxury items here.

    Are these people more well off? Sure. They admit that. It's still not a reason to jack up the tax rates on them, especially in this tax structure.

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    Also, keep in mind, if the American dollar tanks like it's supposed to with this economy, the difference in spending power between a 250k family and even a 100k family won't be that much different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buffalofan19 View Post
    Read the article again. They're not crying poor. What they're saying is, raising the tax rate on a 250k family because they're "filthy rich" is a bad premise.
    I know they aren't crying poor, but I feel no sympathy for anyone who's income is that high. There's no reason to cry uncomfortable either. I get they get a lot of taxes taken out, or will because of his high salary, so ya know what? Don't buy that extra expensive car. Take one less vacation. Don't buy a house that is bigger and has unnecessary features.

    This is my favorite quote:

    "I thought we were just good old middle class,"
    Yeah lady, your husband makes 250k a year, god knows what you make and that's middle class. Get real. Come take a drive through Buffalo, or 35 mins from me, in Detroit, that's where the middle class people are, making well under 100k a year and lucky if they make 45k a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by buffalofan19 View Post
    UJ, you can live comfortable on $7.40 an hour by being frugal, true, but you also barely pay any taxes on that money either. By living in an apartment, you also don't pay property taxes either, which can also take a huge bite out of your bank account.
    I know I barely pay an taxes on that money. How the hell could I? That's the point, the taxes have to come from somewhere, and you can't take it from people like me who make $200 a week or so, because then we'd literally have nothing. If I made more, like my father, I'd expect the taxes to be higher and more taken how, I see his taxes every year, I understand how it works.

    My apartment, a cheap one here, is $435 a month with just flat rent. No water, no utilities, nothing. It's pretty expensive, I don't know what people generally pay for property taxes though, so it all depends on the person and house really.

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    Here's the point. You want to tax the "rich", and that's fine. The problem is 250,000 is being considered "rich" when it really isn't. They're saying that the bar should be set higher than 250,000 and I agree with them. What's wrong with setting the bar at $500,000, or even $750,000. The partners at my firm are in the $250,000 range. They live comfortably, but not luxuriously. Sure, they drive a nicer cars than say you or me, but they're not Lamborghini's or anything like that. The thing is, even if they drove say, a Mazda 3 like I do, they wouldn't be saving that much in taxes, and it's definitely not enough to save them the money for taxes in their tax bracket. The point is the definition of "rich" according to the Obama administration is flawed. The fact that you are telling them to lower their standing of living, which, believe me, isn't [I]that[I] much higher than ours, is showing this. The fact that someone who makes $250,000 a year is in the same bracket as a millionaire shows how flawed the system is.

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    his tax would tax the over 250k right? so they would pay and extra what 3600 in taxes?


    taxes woldn't eat up the entire 15,600, it may eat up half, but that gives them almost an extra thousand a month to spend. paying off their kids college, go to a state school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emocoremakesmecry View Post
    his tax would tax the over 250k right? so they would pay and extra what 3600 in taxes?


    taxes woldn't eat up the entire 15,600, it may eat up half, but that gives them almost an extra thousand a month to spend. paying off their kids college, go to a state school.
    It depends on how their money comes. People who make that type of money don't just get it in the form of a W-2. It sounds like one of those guys, the optometrist, is a partner in a practice. That makes him subject to self-employment tax, which can also be a killer, and it's not all deductible either.

    My point is this: you're targeting the wrong people by the $250,000 class. The money doesn't buy as much as you think it does, and whether they save up more or not, the government isn't going to get the cash they think they're going to get from them. By raising the tax bracket like this, it's enough to hurt the people in that class, but not material enough of a gross up for the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buffalofan19 View Post
    It depends on how their money comes. People who make that type of money don't just get it in the form of a W-2. It sounds like one of those guys, the optometrist, is a partner in a practice. That makes him subject to self-employment tax, which can also be a killer, and it's not all deductible either.

    My point is this: you're targeting the wrong people by the $250,000 class. The money doesn't buy as much as you think it does, and whether they save up more or not, the government isn't going to get the cash they think they're going to get from them. By raising the tax bracket like this, it's enough to hurt the people in that class, but not material enough of a gross up for the government.
    the tax is on the overage, correct?

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    No, it's not. Self-employment tax is basically the other side of the payroll tax that your company would pay if it gave you a W-2. When you receive a paycheck, you get other taxes besides income taxes deducted, namely FICA and Medicare. That's only half of what is owed to the government. The other half is paid by the employer, out of its own pocket. When you're self-employed, you have to pay not only the portion that would normally be deducted, but the other half as well, since you are, in essence, your own employer. It's confusing, but the bottom line is, when you're self employed, you get taxed out the ass, in more ways than one.

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    so the proposed income tax for those over 250k is on the entire amount and not the amount over 250?

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    I believe the line is lower than 250,000. But I see what you were asking about the overage now. If it's right at 250,000, I doubt these people would be complaining. Right now, the highest tax bracket starts at around 150,000.

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    bf19 makes 250,000 a year, (e4)

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    3% increase? noooooooooooooooooooooo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Tough Guy View Post
    bf19 makes 250,000 a year, (e4)
    Not even close. I just work in taxes for a living. I work with people with all sorts of income. You're naive if you think 250,000 a year is filthy rich. It's comfortable, but it's not rich. That's the income level the government targets the most because it's the most vulnerable. Taxing the poor is futile because they can't really pay it and have nothing to lose by not paying it. Either they go to jail or get some sort of payment plan, and the government loses out on the money. The super rich just hire lawyers to take the case to supreme court and somehow weasel out of the income taxes, or they hide their money so the government can't find out how much they really made. The upper-middle class, however, are stuck. They have too much to lose by not paying taxes, and they can't afford the tax avoidance means the super rich can. They're the ones that are most likely to pay their taxes. Therefore, Obama and company want to tax them even more.

  23. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by m76 View Post
    3% increase? noooooooooooooooooooooo
    What world do you live in that $3,000 (at a minimum) is an immaterial amount of money, and how do I get there?

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