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Thread: Gotta love religous irony

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    Gotta love religous irony

    WICHITA, Kan. – Dr. George Tiller, one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.

    The gunman fled, but a 51-year-old suspect was detained some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.

    Although Stolz refused to release the man's name, Johnson County sheriff's spokesman Tom Erickson identified the detained man as Scott Roeder. He has not been charged in the slaying and was expected to be taken to Wichita for questioning.

    Court records and Internet postings show that someone using the name Scott Roeder has a criminal past and has expressed anti-abortion opinions on sympathetic Web sites.

    Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church. Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time.

    The slaying of the 67-year-old doctor is "an unspeakable tragedy," his widow, four children and 10 grandchildren said in statement. "This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."

    The family said its loss "is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence."

    Stolz said all indications were that the gunman acted alone, although authorities were investigating whether he had any connection to anti-abortion groups.

    Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy. The clinic was heavily fortified and Tiller often traveled with a bodyguard, but Stolz said there was no indication of security at the church Sunday.

    Anti-abortion groups denounced the shooting and stressed that they support only nonviolent protest. The movement's leaders fear the killing could create a backlash just as they are scrutinizing U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor, whose views on abortion rights are not publicly known.

    "We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president, said in a statement. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."

    But Randall Terry, a veteran anti-abortion activist who founded Operation Rescue and whose protests have often targeted Tiller, called the slain doctor "a mass murderer," adding: "He was an evil man — his hands were covered with blood."

    At Tiller's church, Adam Watkins, 20, said he was sitting in the middle of the congregation when he heard a small pop at the start of the service.

    "We just thought a child had come in with a balloon and it had popped, had gone up and hit the ceiling and popped," Watkins said.

    Another usher came in and told the congregation to remain seated, then escorted Tiller's wife out. "When she got to the back doors, we heard her scream, and so we knew something bad had happened," Watkins said.

    President Barack Obama said he was "shocked and outraged" by the murder. "However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," he said.

    Reformation Lutheran Church held a special service Sunday evening. Dr. Michael Bates, who has known Tiller for more than 25 years, described it as a simple service featuring Bible readings. Reporters were kept out.

    At a vigil in downtown Wichita that attracted a few hundred people, about 10 protesters from Topeka's Westboro Baptist Church held signs emblazoned with such messages as "Abortion is bloody murder" and "Baby killer in hell." The church is known for picketing military funerals.

    The protesters and about 20 Tiller supporters shouted at each other. A large number of police officers stood by to make sure the scene stayed under control.

    Tiller had in the past endured threats and violence. A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. More recently, Monnat said Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. Stolz, however, said police knew of no threats connected to the shooting.

    In early May, Tiller had asked the FBI to investigate vandalism at his clinic, including cut wires to surveillance cameras and damage to the roof that sent rainwater pouring into the building.

    In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.

    Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.

    Nancy Keenan, president of abortion-rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America, issued a statement praising Tiller's commitment.

    "Dr. Tiller's murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita," Keenan said.

    The doctor's violent death was the latest in a string of shootings and bombings over two decades directed against abortion clinics, doctors and staff.

    The last killing of an abortion doctor was in October 1998 when Dr. Barnett Slepian was fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. A militant abortion opponent was convicted of the murder.

    Federal marshals protected Tiller during the 1991 Summer of Mercy protests, and he was protected again between 1994 and 1998 after another abortion provider was assassinated and federal authorities reported finding Tiller's name on an assassination list.

    Someone named Scott Roeder, then 38, was charged in Topeka, Kan., in 1996 with criminal use of explosives for having bomb components in his car trunk and sentenced to 24 months of probation. However, his conviction was overturned on appeal the next year after a higher court said evidence against Roeder was seized by law enforcement officers during an illegal search of his car.

    At the time, police said the FBI had identified Roeder as a member of the anti-government Freemen group, an organization that kept the FBI at bay in Jordan, Mont., for almost three months in 1995-96.

    Someone posting to the Web site of Operation Rescue in May 2007 used the name "Scott Roeder" in response to a scheduled vigil to "pray for an end to George R. Tiller's late-term abortion business."

    "Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp," the posting read. "Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller."


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  2. #2
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    Guy who kills babies is a church usher who then is shot by someone [who is probably religious] in a church for killing babies Do religious people use any basic logic at all?? or is this what old testament god would do?

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  3. #3
    Toughsy
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    Eh late term abortion is fucking disgusting no matter what your beliefs are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Tough Guy View Post
    Eh late term abortion is fucking disgusting no matter what your beliefs are.
    I don't disagree with that at all. I don't like any abortion but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

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    It pisses me off, and I'm staunchly pro-life. It does make our side look "hypocritical" especially to the "undecided" masses. Whether or not it was done in a church makes it no more or less heinous. That is assuming that this is why he was shot and killed. I know it's most likely, but we really have no idea. The guy could have had a personal grudge.

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  8. #6
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    So you could probably argue that this Dr. George Tiller's death was just another late term abortion then...


    That is the real irony...

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  10. #7
    OH MY GOD YOU GUYS
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    I think anyone who, upon hearing about this tragedy, first thought to him/herself that this was somehow reciprocal or just is a reprehensible human being.

    It's inherently contradictory and hypocritical of a representative of the pro-life movement to take away someone else's life, regardless of how they view the morality of his practice. Single issue pro-life advocacy groups have handled this situation with dignity and honor, strongly rebuking what the gunman did. I applaud them for that.

    This man is a pro-life terrorist, in the same way that someone who would bomb an industrial facility or kill a scientist doing research on animals is an ecoterrorist. Ultimately, the Dept. of Homeland Security was right to argue a couple of months ago that the far-right is capable of reprehensible domestic acts. Never understood why this was a controversial point to Rush Limbaugh (Timothy McVeigh, anyone?)

    CARDIGAN BURGERS!!!

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  12. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMNY83 View Post
    Guy who kills babies is a church usher who then is shot by someone [who is probably religious] in a church for killing babies Do religious people use any basic logic at all?? or is this what old testament god would do?
    Please don't lump this murderer into the average "religious people" category.

    Yes. The vast majority of "religious people" use basic logic every single day of their lives.

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  14. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignatius B. Fisticuffs View Post
    I think anyone who, upon hearing about this tragedy, first thought to him/herself that this was somehow reciprocal or just is a reprehensible human being.

    It's inherently contradictory and hypocritical of a representative of the pro-life movement to take away someone else's life, regardless of how they view the morality of his practice. Single issue pro-life advocacy groups have handled this situation with dignity and honor, strongly rebuking what the gunman did. I applaud them for that.

    This man is a pro-life terrorist, in the same way that someone who would bomb an industrial facility or kill a scientist doing research on animals is an ecoterrorist. Ultimately, the Dept. of Homeland Security was right to argue a couple of months ago that the far-right is capable of reprehensible domestic acts. Never understood why this was a controversial point to Rush Limbaugh (Timothy McVeigh, anyone?)

    Late term abortion performing scum are much worse than those other examples

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    Please don't lump this murderer into the average "religious people" category.

    Yes. The vast majority of "religious people" use basic logic every single day of their lives.
    Plus, you have to wait until we know more. Yes, it's most likely that abortion was the motive here, but what if we found out that the guy slept with the shooter's wife? Then it's not a religious issue at all.

  16. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Tough Guy View Post
    Eh late term abortion is fucking disgusting no matter what your beliefs are.
    What if your beliefs are that late term abortions are cute and cuddly?

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  18. #12
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    Then you end up getting smoked?

  19. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignatius B. Fisticuffs View Post
    I think anyone who, upon hearing about this tragedy, first thought to him/herself that this was somehow reciprocal or just is a reprehensible human being.

    It's inherently contradictory and hypocritical of a representative of the pro-life movement to take away someone else's life, regardless of how they view the morality of his practice. Single issue pro-life advocacy groups have handled this situation with dignity and honor, strongly rebuking what the gunman did. I applaud them for that.

    This man is a pro-life terrorist, in the same way that someone who would bomb an industrial facility or kill a scientist doing research on animals is an ecoterrorist. Ultimately, the Dept. of Homeland Security was right to argue a couple of months ago that the far-right is capable of reprehensible domestic acts. Never understood why this was a controversial point to Rush Limbaugh (Timothy McVeigh, anyone?)
    How is it necessarily hypocritical? I'm adamantly pro-choice, but I can see the opposite side of the argument. If someone is pro-life, then equating a fetus with a human life equates an abortion with a murder, and stopping someone who performs these procedures can easily be viewed as just punishment for someone that has committed many murders.

    Before you start goosestepping on people, fascist, realize that people with Ron Paul bumper stickers were being targeted. You can shove your preventative crimes up your ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Tough Guy View Post
    Then you end up getting smoked?
    Like Ohio State in a bowl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LALALALALALAFONTAINE View Post
    How is it necessarily hypocritical? I'm adamantly pro-choice, but I can see the opposite side of the argument. If someone is pro-life, then equating a fetus with a human life equates an abortion with a murder, and stopping someone who performs these procedures can easily be viewed as just punishment for someone that has committed many murders.
    ...or preventative of future murders. I have heard that argument made before, and I don't like it, even as a pro-lifer, because where do you draw the line? Assume, hypothetically, for a minute, that we all agree that abortion is murder beyond all doubt. Who is more responsible, the doctor who performs the procedure, or the mother who consents to it? You'd have to knock off both by that logic.

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    I think the window of opportunity to have an abortion should be extended until the kid is 18. Put the fear of God into them at a young age so they learn to behave.

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    Thank God I crossed that threshhold a while ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeMama View Post
    I think the window of opportunity to have an abortion should be extended until the kid is 18. Put the fear of God into them at a young age so they learn to behave.
    Then none of us would have ever met you Joe, and I would be sad.

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  29. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbert View Post
    Then none of us would have ever met you Joe, and I would be sad.
    That's the thing with my "extra late-term abortion" policy; I conveniently adopted it after my own 18th birthday.

    Total coincidence though...

    Besides, I was raised with the fear of God already in me.

    When my old man used to tuck me in he'd say "Remember boy, I can kill you with one punch," then add, "and it's not illegal to kill your first born son. Well anyway, sweet dreams!"

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    You guys kill me. Thanks

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